Encap results with Surround Ultra

[Mo]

G you're singing to the choir when it comes the merits of VLM and encapping on this board.

I've only been spinning the rag for 5 years and I'm still learning. Allow me to pick your brain.

Let's say you just OPed the funeral home with a non encap cleaning solution and you did the vacuum test. How would the dirt differ in appearance from encapsulated dirt? Would it be grey, darker, softer, harder?

You're original post was about you pad capping the funeral home. Is it your opinion that a Tuway pad picks up more soil than a 100% cotton or cotton blend?

Here's how encapsulated soil looks under a microscope. I believe the clear material is the polymer and the darker stuff is the soil.
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[G Kleen]

Mo, the dirt collected with post vac if a non encap detergent were used would be considerably less as far as the amount collected. This would be the result because of the sticky, dirt attracting residue left behind with a regular detergent. As far as the appearance of the soil collected, it would have maybe only a slight difference because in order for the vacuum to pick up soil, the soil would have to be dry enough to be collected. The main difference would be that more soil would be trapped in the carpet by the sticky residue and less soil would be collected.

I am familiar with the microscope photo that you posted. I think that it is an excellent picture of what the encap is doing. Now imagine the amount of soil in the microscopic image multiplied by a million or more, and you would have the result pictured below.

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I copied that picture from the VacAway site which also included the picture that you shared. http://VacAway.com/images_dumpster/index.htm

No, I do not think that the Tuway "thin one" pads pick up more soil than a cotton or cotton blend. The Tuway is less absorbent, but they do absorb. I use them quite often on CGD, but in some cases with an extreme soil load I will use Super Zorb pads.

[Infamousdave]

Let's say you just OPed the funeral home with a non encap cleaning solution and you did the vacuum test. How would the dirt differ in appearance from encapsulated dirt? Would it be grey, darker, softer, harder?

Just curious, why would you ever OP with a non encap cleaning solution?

[ChemBright]

Let's say you just OPed the funeral home with a non encap cleaning solution and you did the vacuum test. How would the dirt differ in appearance from encapsulated dirt? Would it be grey, darker, softer, harder?

Just curious, why would you ever OP with a non encap cleaning solution?

There are alot of good cleaning chems out there that aren't encap. Personally I don't think they can offer what an encap does but there are still good cleaners.

[Mo]

" As far as the appearance of the soil collected, it would have maybe only a slight difference because in order for the vacuum to pick up soil, the soil would have to be dry enough to be collected".

OK G so according to you there isn't a visible difference in appearance between the encapsulated soil and regular soil that is vacuumed after the carpet has dried, the difference is in the quantity of soil that is collected.

So you see it isn't "ridiculous" you actually agree with Mike and I that you need a microscope in order to see what's in the soil.

When Jon and Andy say that it looks like regular soil they're not saying that encapsulation a "hoax". They're just saying that encapsulated soil and regular soil that has been vacuumed the next day have a similar appearance.

I can give you an extreme example of when I saw the encapsulation process n action. It wasn't in the soil that was collected post vac but in the appearance of the carpet.

I was cleaning a lightly soiled room until when I went over a 3" x 3" area. I started pulling out black soil that wasn't there before I started cleaning. It looked like someone had spilled a potted plant and just grinded the dirt into to the carpet and became impacted into the tuft of the carpet.

I went through 5 pads and they all came up black and the dark spot was still there. Unfortunately I didn't have a way to flush the spot out at that time so I decide to stop let it dry, let the encap do it's magic vacuum and clean it again.

When I went back the next day the 3" x 3" dark spot was gone. I saw the encapsulation process in action not in the dirt that was vacuumed but in the appearance of the carpet. There is no way that would have happened the next day with HWE or a non encap solution.

Dave I use a non encap solution with a zero health rating with customers that suffer from multiple chemical sensitivities etc.

[Bonnet Pro]

On the other hand Mr.G,   if your so "right"  then why do all the encap makers say that you have to flush the build up out after so many encap cleanings with hwe ?   

If it vacs out so well , then why the eventual build up?   

I'm not anti encap, I've been vlm cleaner for 5 years, But I Pad cap cause I'm not convinced that encaped dirt vacs out. I've done tests also.   I hope to be pr oven wrong cause I would save lots of time by scrubbin and run, rather than going thru a bunch of pads trying to remove as much dirt as humanly possable.   
Having said that, I'll be taken a road trip Wendsday to pick up a couple of 175 machines. I plan to straight up encap with them. 

Andy, who says that? I dont. Surround will re wet so it can never build up. If I am going to extract it would be for other reasons, urine or blood or to mix it up. Go to my site: bonnetpro.com and scroll down to encap education. Then select Surround and the electron microscope. This will allow you to see the fibers after the vacuum cycle.

[Andy Mc]

Ok I'm missing somthing. 

When you say surround won't build up because it's rewettable,  I take that to mean your saying it can be easly flushed out with hwe thus preventing build up ? 

Perhaps  You ment to say ,  surround wont build up casue it vacuumes out of the carpet, thus preventing build up?     

[ChemBright]

If Surround "rewets" wouldn't that mean that it remains in the carpet? So over the years that would lead to buildup? Please clarify John.

[Mike M]

Most encap cleaners will go back into solution when re-wet.

Try it yourself with your current cleaner. Let some dry then add water. Most will go back into solution after a while.

This is NOT to say they need to be rinsed out. They could be rinsed out though because they dissolve in water.

If encap agents dry to a crystal then why would they need to be rinsed out? The worst you would have is a build up of crystals. This would indicate poor vacuuming not a need to rinse.

I am wondering if some of the statements about having to "flush" come about from when the statements were made (early in encap development years ago) or sales pitch. Since HWE is the most used method in the industry early encappers had to be convinced to use the system. If a HWE guy thought it would be rinsed out later it made more sense to them. It was only after extended usage that one realizes its not necessary.

Not attributing the above statement to BonnetPro or Surround Ultra as a product. John seems to have a firm grasp on how his product works.

[ChemBright]

Most encap cleaners will go back into solution when re-wet.

Try it yourself with your current cleaner. Let some dry then add water. Most will go back into solution after a while.

This is NOT to say they need to be rinsed out. They could be rinsed out though because they dissolve in water.

If encap agents dry to a crystal then why would they need to be rinsed out? The worst you would have is a build up of crystals. This would indicate poor vacuuming not a need to rinse.

I am wondering if some of the statements about having to "flush" come about from when the statements were made (early in encap development years ago) or sales pitch. Since HWE is the most used method in the industry early encappers had to be convinced to use the system. If a HWE guy thought it would be rinsed out later it made more sense to them. It was only after extended usage that one realizes its not necessary.

Not attributing the above statement to BonnetPro or Surround Ultra as a product. John seems to have a firm grasp on how his product works.

And thats what I have always thought. Just never thought about how the leftover encap in the carpet would rewet. Actually should help when you return to clean again right? 

[Mike M]

Hopefully by the time you return there isn't any encap left in the carpet.

This would assume regular vacuuming by the customer.

[Bonnet Pro]

Sorry I lost this post. It re wets and that is mentioned just for the sake of sharing that it would be very hard to ever have it build up in the first place. This is outside of vacuuming, if that makes sense. In other words as you look at pics from Surround and the electron microscope you see that the fiber is tri lobial shaped. It is not inconceivable that some could remain in the folds of the lobes and to have a small percentage lost from the vacuum over shorter time periods. I think that as weeks turn into months that this is less likely to happen but is worth mentioning. So lets say you clean a building every month. And lets say you do a very good job and clean all the edges and corners. Do those areas get foot traffic or vacuumed? Maybe not. So to have the product re wet is a usable feature in my opinion.

[Bonnet Pro]

Hey Mike, just curious how many posts until I get another block and join the 3 block club  http://uscleanersnetwork.com/smf/Smileys/alive/huh.gif

[Mike M]

I think its 40 more?

[Andy Mc]

3 block club?   Funny how a 2 time hero member , 1 time moderater, and 3 time self proclaimed industry leader,..
(such as my self) ,    has no idea what that means.

[Grant D.]

3 block club?   Funny how a 2 time hero member , 1 time moderater, and 3 time self proclaimed industry leader,..
(such as my self) ,    has no idea what that means.

You forgot to mention the candy bar competition that you won. 

[Andy Mc]

Right you are.   Let me rephrase, Two time hero member, 1 time moderater, 3 time self proclaimed industry leader, and 1 time winner of candy bar contest.

[ChemBright]

I sent you that candy bar......you didn't get it? The UPS guy said he was hungry but I didn't believe him.....

[Bonnet Pro]

The blocks under your name to the left.